Today, I’m talking with Mari. They are a writer, podcaster, and model living in Toronto. We talk about their spooky podcast, Sick Sad World, and how it got started. Like all great conversations, we touch on languages, colonialism, bullying, and the hope we both have in the younger generation.

Make sure to check out their site, Indivisible Writing, and their Twitter. You can listen to Sick Sad World here (or wherever you catch your pods) and stay in the loop by following the show’s Twitter account. Consider supporting Mari & Jasmine’s work on Sick Sad World on Patreon.

Pieces mentioned in the show:

• How Callout Culture Can Become Toxic – Wear Your Voice
• Gender Variance Around the World Over Time – Teen Vogue
• Why LGBT spaces can be uncomfortable for queer people of color – Daily Xtra

Oh! And don’t forget to take this survey on chronic pain & kink!

Transcript

Welcome to the chronic sex podcasts, chronic sex talks about how self love relationships, sex and sexuality are all affected by chronic illness and disability. That’s not all though. We’ll also touch on intersectionality, social justice, empathy, current events, and much, much more. Give you a range of subject matter, this podcast is not suitable for those under the age of 18 and unless you have headphones in, tou probably shouldn’t be listening to us at work. My name’s Kirsten Schultz and I’m your host.

Hi wonderful humans, I’ve missed you. Um, an interesting couple of weeks getting some medical stuff taken care of. Um, and the end of the month I have an appointment to do a gastric emptying study. So basically they’re gonna feed me eggs and then they have to like watch how they go through my system. So that’ll be fun. Uh, like to see if I have been experiencing like delayed emptying or what’s also known as gastro-paresis. Um, because I just can’t eat a lot. And sometimes like if I eat a Chipotle bowl, sometimes it’s 24 hours before I can eat again because I’m just still too full. Like, that should not be a thing, uh, but it is in my life.

It’s also been interesting because as a part of that I’m having to taper down off of a tricyclic antidepressant. Um, I really didn’t want to go on it in the first place, but my neurology team wouldn’t try, um, to give me a, a Migraine abortive med without trying, nortryptalene which can also prevent migraines from happening. But I don’t think it’s really helping me and I really don’t like being on two antidepressants and three medications that impact my liver. So the more I can get rid of that, great. So those are just going to be nice to eliminate one more pill bottle from my collection of pill bottles that are out. I’m just so looking forward to it. Well, one of the things is I have to taper off of this medication because of that gastric emptying study because nortriptyline can apparently cause constipation, which no one told me until yesterday and that might’ve been nice to know this time last year when they vote on it. But okay. Um, it’s, it’ll be really nice to get the study done. And see what’s going on and it’ll be really nice to be off this med. I’m really looking forward to being more productive and um, not feeling like a walking pill case. I know it’s just one med gone, but it actually is like three pills a day because I take 30 milligrams and it’s just really nice to get rid of. So I think not sounding like a Mariachi. Nope. Maraca. That’s what I was thinking. Like making the movements with my hands so I can remember the fuck. Um, it’s been an interesting few days as my husband’s got a cold and I think about the verge of getting it. I can’t tell. Um, but it is really interesting to be like the well one that doesn’t usually happen physically, uh, mentally slash emotionally. Sure. But like physically, it’s just been really weird, to take care of him. I Dunno, we’ll see if I get it. I’ve had a fever, like while the, he started his cold. I’m like, canceled some social plans because of the. I’m not sure. I’m not sure. It always takes me longer to get sick somehow. Um, and then it hits real hard. So we’ll see what happens, but maybe,

you know, like in the last three years that I have been on the biologic that I take for my systemic juvenile arthritis, it’s a daily shot, um, which is interesting. It makes traveling fucked up, but, um, it targets one part of my immune system where it actually does a lot of good, um, in, in actually targeting the source of my inflammation and pain from my JA instead of some of the other medications I’ve been on that basically attack all parts of my immune system and then I catch everything and like someone’s case of the sniffles is pneumonia. So knock on wood that, that won’t happen this year or ever again. It hasn’t for the last couple of years. Um, I haven’t really even gotten bronchitis the last couple of years and that’s usually a, an annual thing for me. So I’m really happy about that. Going to today’s episode, I’m really excited to be on with my friend Mari. They are really fantastic. They also have a podcast called Sick Sad World that we talk a little bit about. And then we referenced a couple of links, so I’ll put those in the show notes for those of you who like to go check out, um, things we mention, like to read more about gender. Um, and then also, you know, where you can find Mari’s writing and all of the fantastic work that they’re doing.

I will say after getting this new microphone, um, I don’t think I realized how much better this one is from the last one. So there’s still a lot of clicking in this recording because of the fact that I’m really close to my microphone. I’m like a whole desk length away from it right now. And I sound real good. So it’s real funky. Um, I just have to train myself to not like give the microphone a blow job, go figure. And I think I’m going to scrap the program that I been using called Zencastr. While it makes it easier to record it missed a bunch of audio again, um, like not, not missed it, but it’s placed at weird and it had to go back in and fix it, which is kind of a pain and defeats the purpose of like them mixing it for you. Like I paid money for that if I’m going to have to do it again anyway. It’s just like the dishwasher commercials, like the detergent commercials that have been on lately, like ‘my mom washes the dishes before she puts them in the dishwasher. What’s that point?’ It’s kind of how I’m feeling about the program. Right? I’m sure it has something to do with like my internet or I don’t know, but uh, it shouldn’t be that bad. Anyway. Um, one last thing before I get to my conversation with Mari, there is a psychology Grad student doing a study around chronic pain and coping mechanisms you used for that and it includes bdsm in the survey. So if you go to the site, um, chronic sex dot org, you should be able to find it. It should be on the front page right now. Um, or at the very least, like in the scrolly thing on so that you can find that and take that. That would be wonderful and a big help. The psychology student is a fantastic person and I’m really excited that they’re doing this research. It’s super needed. So please go check that out. Um, and take that. It takes like they estimated 30 minutes. It took me like 10 or 15. We have a really fast or of a person. So I guess there’s a good range for you to know, like 10 to 15 to 30 minutes. Like is some time to allocate while you’re on the bus or like trying to arrest or something. I don’t know. Anyway, um, with out further ado, here’s my conversation with Mari.

Hi Mari. How are you? I’m great. Thanks for asking. I am so excited to talk with you today and pick your brain and talk about creepy things.Cause it is October – my favorite. Can you introduce yourself for people who don’t know who you are? Like what are the top things they need to know about how bad ass you are? I’m always bad at describing myself as bad ass, but I am a nonbinary and disabled writer, podcaster and a, I guess amateur model. Um, I have a website, indivisible writing.com and my podcast Sick Sad World which is a true crime and horror podcast. So basically, October is my favorite month of the year.

I was creeping your website 10 minutes ago because this is how I prepare for things. Um, and just like the different organizations you’ve written for like Leafly and Nuance, Wear Your Voice, and Bitch Media, those are some really important and heavy hitting like spaces to write for and you’re just an amazing writer as it is to see your name. Like when I open an article that I’m not expecting to be from, I don’t know somewhat. I know. See your name. There is. So cool. Has that happened to you? Cause I didn’t realize like things were getting shared around by other people. Absolutely. Your piece on call out culture and where your voice um, is

really like gets shared around a lot. Oh, like I’ll be scrolling on facebook. I’m like, oh cool. This looks like I should read it even though I’ve read it like 12 times, and then I opened that and I’m like, oh, anything. It’s such an important piece too. Um, I don’t think many white people realize how they are, creating more toxic spaces in spaces that are for more marginalized people, and it’s really important to keep that in mind. So I think that’s just a great piece and I will link to it in the show notes. For anybody who hasn’t read it, you should push pause and immediately click on that and read it. Oh, thank you. Um, so tell me about Sick sad world. Tell me how your podcast came about. It’s such a cool and interesting mix of things. So, um, I guess the idea kind of started the way most true crime podcasts start. Um, I started listening to a few. I actually landed on My Favorite Murder, but I have feelings about them right now. Um, but I kind of sat there and was like, I could do this. I love talking about murder. Why not talk about murder to people who might listen and um, so I try to do it on my own and it was way less fun than I expected. Um, but then I found out that my best friend of like, I’m not even sure how many years now, it’s like over 15. And um, she surprised me by being like, actually, I really love horror in true crime.

Um, and so I was like, okay, can you do a podcast with me? And it just like instantly worked. We were like really scared we wouldn’t get to like 30 minutes. Um, you know, just talking. But it, you know, now our episodes run to almost like two hours, which is why we’re biweekly. Um, yeah. So yeah, I, um, my cohost is Jasmine and uh, yeah, we’ve been best friends for like 17 years or something like that. So that’s a cool. Um, and I, it sounds so much like you’re right, like the other starting beginning points of other true crime podcasts. Um, another one I listened to a lot is, And That’s Why We Drink and like the, the kind of interactions that you and jasmine have are very, very similar, the kind of interactions that Christine and Em have. Um, and I don’t know if you’ve listened to And That’s why we drink. It’s really good.

I’ve only heard them on the crossover episode with wine and crime. Oh yeah. That was pretty great. I’ve been meaning to add them to my list, but it’s like I’m already behind on most of my podcasts, so I was like, I don’t need to add another thing to overwhelm me, feel you. I think I’m four episodes behind on wine and crime right now. Yeah. But, um, and I think there’s just new cool podcasts popping up all the time. Like I know my podcast APP has, I’m just guesstimating as I’m looking at it, but like 30 podcasts. Yeah, that sounds about right. It is, it’s just so cool. I think to have the mix that you and jasmine have to talk about true crime, but also talk about horror and aliens and social justice issues.

Yeah. That was something I, I stipulated when we started, I was like, we’re not sticking with just true crime because I’m gonna want to talk about aliens at some point. Yes. Aliens are so much fun to talk about. Like, um, astonishing legends is another podcast that I kind of think about in the same realm as yours that they talk about. Have you listened to them? They’re so cool. Um, I listened to their Dyatlov Pass – their two episodes on that. Uh, because, uh, my, my friend who got me onto true crime podcast, I’m was like, you need to hear all about Dyatlov Pass. Here’s all the places you can listen about it. I love just kind of the way they handle things and their episodes are like two hours ish too. It’s just really cool to hear. I think the comparisons and things you have in common with different podcasts, like these podcasts are really big and I think that your podcast needs to be really big. It’s so. It’s so fun to listen to this before we hit record, but I listened to it when I tried to put my clothes away or one in like doing random shit around the apartment.

That’s how I know I’m, I’m Primo podcast material because that’s the exact time you want people to listen. It’s perfect. It fills in dead airspace.

And I think too, it’s also just kind of fun to listen to it. And he like, I know what, um, I think I played the first episode for my husband and we were putting away clothes and he was like, who is this? And I was like, oh, like it sucks that we’re all. This is my friend Mari, like from Playground. Um, and he was impressed. So impressed to slash horror aficionados.

That’s amazing. I did not think we were that.

You’re really good. I’m not just saying this because you’re my friend, but like I feel like that just adds to it. I don’t know. I might be biased.

Well, I will take your word as Gospel.

I love that and I’m going to get an ego. Well, you’re giving me one. So it’s only fitting. Yay. Mutual Egos. What has been like your favorite episode so far?

Oh, I was trying to figure this out this morning because I had a feeling it would come up and I don’t think I could pick just one, but I would say my top three would be. And in no particular order, I guess it’s an order of reverse chronological. Uh, but, um, we just did an episode with Kristen Nadel who is the daughter of a, a man who just vanished basically without a trace. Um, and so we just did an episode with her because she wrote a book called Free Bird and um, it was just like this really eyeopening episode. Um, that was just like, wow. Like I didn’t even like think about these things and it’s just like more ways to ground myself and remind myself that there are still victims of the cases that we talk about, you know, around. And I read their families are. Another one of my favorites is called the dangers of being disabled.

And that’s an episode I did with Andrew Gurza, who I think you’ve mentioned on this podcast before, I have a, that’s an episode where we talk about, um, we talked about, um, two murders that actually happened in Canada. We didn’t plan that out were, you know, ableism was kind of at the root of the motive. So that one was also like a really emotional episode. Andrew and I both picked cases where we, the, the victims had the same disability as us. And it happened, like they both happened in Canada. Mine was just like a three hour drive away from me where it happened and I’m like, it only happened in 2000. So it was like really intense. Um, and then one of my favorites is called the aliens made me do it. It’s our least, uh, listened to episode, but it’s my favorite, um, because I talk about aliens. So I mean, any chance to talk about aliens is kind of the best.

Yeah. And, um, it was, uh, it was a fun one because we talked about, uh, uh, you know, we talked about crimes that people committed, um, where they blamed aliens for it. They were like, and then there were, there was a really kind of a gross one that I covered in that, which is a possibility for why it’s my least favorite episode because I do content warning that. You knows, I like that you do content warnings before the stories. It was really important to both me and jasmine. Like that was something we both, like, we were like, okay, what do we want to do here? And we were both like content warnings, um, because sometimes we want to talk about like the really icky stuff, but like you can’t just throw that on someone with no warning that I really hate it when other podcasts do it and I’m not prepared. And I’m like, oh, cool, we’re talking about this now that’s, I’m just trying to get my dishes done. Like,

yes, same. Uh, there have been a couple podcasts that I’ve like just stopped listening to because they don’t do content warnings. And I try to give podcasts like three chances once we’ve hit the third where I’m in like crying, flashback mode, and it’s time to hit the unsubscribe button.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was really important to us that we did. But I think that speaks to like how cool you and Jasmine are, you know, like being focused and thinking ahead about people’s needs and wanting them to feel as comfortable as possible with the content and listen to it, you know, when they’re ready to hear certain things. Um, I think just also speaks to how compassionate both of you. And I think that’s something that we really need to try to foster more in various communities, especially the podcasting community. So I’ve really, really loved that you do it and it makes it so much easier to listen to your podcast.

I’m glad. I’m glad that’s how it comes across. Um, yeah, I think that’s kind of like the reason me and Jasmine’s friendship has lasted since elementary school. Um, we’ve just, um, have always been like really careful of each other’s feelings. And I think we’ve also taught each other to be more aware of other people’s feelings. So like, like we grew up together, we basically learned how to be people together, so really worked out that way.

I like it. It’s good stuff. Where do you like, this is a grandiose question, but like if you could choose what future you have with Sick Sad World, would you want it to get like as big as some of the other true crime podcasts? Or would you rather it still be kind of smaller? Or where do you. I guess like the best way to phrase that as like where do you want six sad world to end up progressing?

When I started, I didn’t initially intend to want to get it, like super big, but it would be nice for it to be able to pay for itself at least. Um, so kind of, um, that’s all I really want out of it is to be able to, to keep doing this and not have to be like, oh well I have to put work in front of this. And that’s how things fall to the side and end up unfinished.

Yeah. And it is really hard, especially like already dealing with health issues that you have to put ahead of like getting some work done. Um, it’s just a really interesting balance I think to consider all of the different identities that we hold and what we need to do to practice self care for those different identities and spaces. And then also capitalism on top of it is just a giant fuck you to everyone. I don’t know. I feel myself

leaning more and more towards kind of socialist ideals lately. So maybe that’s a little much, but no, I totally agree. I’m, I’m, yeah, I’ve been leaning towards social. I think, you know, when you deal with chronic illness and disability, like it’s hard not to lean socialist. Capitalism and you know, that kind of thing only fosters the idea that your productivity and the amount that you can do with your body is what makes you valuable. We can’t survive that way. So. No, no, I think that is a really great observation. It’s something I didn’t think about until you brought it up, but I think every person I know who is sick, uh, who is not like married to a sugar daddy has very socialist leaning principles and I think it’s just only gets more and more, uh, intense, like I feel myself leaning more and more in that direction just with like our current political climate. And y’all happened on the horrible conservatives-in-charge train too. Yeah, it’s been real fun. The best so great. Like, um, I actually, um,

use social assistance to basically survive right now for the last two years I’ve been unable to work full-time and Toronto rental prices have been skyrocketing. So yikes. Um, our premier wants to, uh, you know, freeze all of the social assistance, um, cuts are only, you know, inevitable at this point with the way his budgets working. And uh, yeah. So definitely I’ve like become super socialist, like especially in the last few months because it’s just like, hey, cool, I just want me and my friends to survive. Can that just happen? Please? Can we live? Is that, is that too much to ask? Like please don’t make me move out of the city into somewhere else, like super far away from doctors and friends and community just so I can afford my rent a be so bad would be so bad, but I like, I see it happening

so often. Not just in Toronto but like here, even Madison is not a gigantic city. Uh, we’re like 300,000 and I think if you include the close suburban areas, probably like 500,000. Yeah. That is small. But it’s, it’s also college town so then that number gets much bigger for large chunks of the year. But there’s so many people that live farther out because it’s the only way they can afford things. Um, my acupuncturist lives like an hour and a half away and it’s bad except that he fills his time with podcasts. So then it doesn’t feel as awful and it’s if you ever like, found something you weren’t sure was going to be helpful healthwise that actually really was?

Actually. So this sounds like a little embarrassing, but I’ve been trying to like talk about it more. Um, I actually recently had to start like occasionally wearing diapers. Um, I have Spina Bifida and incontinence is one of the things that come with it and lately, like I had a cold for like two weeks and every time I sneezed you know things happen. Um, and it was getting really frustrating to constantly have to change my pants, change my underwear. Um, you know, I couldn’t like sit on my couch. It was just like embarrassing and uncomfortable. And so I, I had done a little photo shoot in diapers before, so I still had a bunch sitting around and I was just like, maybe I’ll do this. And I actually, like I was able to go through my day and like get stuff done because I wasn’t constantly having to be like super near the bathroom or you know, like having to constantly go change my pants, was not easy on the laundry money.

It’s been something I’ve been resisting because I, I wore diapers far later into my childhood then, uh, my peers and I was bullied for it. And um, because at the time my disability was invisible and my parents were afraid to talk about it because of bullying, but then I got bullied anyways. Um, and so I kind of stopped using them and was like, no, I’ll learn how to deal with this issue by myself. I’ll figure it out. And then in the last couple months I’ve just been like, I think I have to change something. I’m really proud of you because I know that that is not always

difficult or not always an easy step to make. Um, and there’s so many societal ideas of what’s okay to do for taking care of yourself and what isn’t. And it’s really easy, I think, to get in this internalized ableism mode where you’re like, no, I don’t wear diapers. That’s not me. I’m, I’m not that sick or things like that. Um, so I’m really proud of you for taking that step. And I think that it’ll be a really good thing in the long run because you said like, you’re being able to be more productive and do more things and take care of more things. And that is, and as much as I hate to say it, like that is what our society loves. Um, there’s also, I’m guessing it might be for you just like it is for me, like it’s also really difficult to detach from that. So I feel really, really good when I get shit done.

Yeah, I definitely do. Um, and there’s so much satisfaction in actually getting something done. Um, but you know, as I mentioned before, like our survival is based on getting shit done. So it’s also kind of like an imperative

for sure. And I’m really happy that you did that photo shoot so that you had diapers on hand to, to just be able to try because I know that they’re not inexpensive to pick up. So.

No. Yeah, that’s why it’s, it’s definitely just gonna be an occasional thing, um, you know, during flu season and um, you know, anything that kind of triggers that. But it was, yeah, like a super difficult step to take. Um, especially with the kind of like internalized ableism and like the history of bullying, especially around that. Like I was, there was an older boy at my school who called me ‘diaper girl’ and uh, it was super not fun. Um, he would just spend all recess just making fun of me,

but then my brother threw a bike at him and he moved away. So Kudos to your brother. He always told me it was because he made fun of one of his friends too. Um, but I know there was a, like it only happened after I eventually told my family what happened and then he suddenly moved away and then my brother was like, oh yeah, that might not have to deal with me throwing a bike. Like our parents were very upset. They were like, you can’t, you can’t do that. You can’t go around throwing bicycles and other modes of transportation at people.

He’s grown out of that though, thankfully. That’s good. Yeah. I think people do frown upon having bikes chucked them, unfortunately. Yeah. And I think especially at children is kind of the worst part about that. You know, that kid shouldn’t have made fun of me and that’s all I have to say about just to take care of yourself and then you don’t have to worry about bikes being chucked at you. That’s all. I kind of love that. So much. Like I want a graphic of like someone just throwing the bike. That’d be amazing. I have to talk to Rachel just to get it created so you can have it like framed that way and be good because it is one of the few like happy memories I have with my brothers. So it’s like, let’s remember this one forever. Forget everything else. And absolutely like the bike checking.

That’s the one. So speaking about Ableism, you’ve been working on and putting on workshops at the unpacking Ableism, right? Yes, yes. I have um, me, uh, Kate Walsh and oh my goodness, how could I have forgotten jade’s last name in my friend, jade, I can’t remember her last name. Uh, we put together this workshop called unpacking ableism and it’s um, that’s great workshop. That kind of, uh, we start off with the basics to make sure everyone’s on the same page. Like what is able ism, um, you know, how does intersectionality come into play, like what is intersectionality? Um, but we also get into kind of stuff like, um, the actual intersections like calling the police on, you know, someone you perceive to be mentally ill, um, and the repercussions that can have um, and also, you know, stuff like how do you ask someone if they need help instead of just trying to help them without their permission.

Um, stuff like that. And um, we’ve done it just like a, a couple times. We did it for the five one nine here in Toronto, um, as a first iteration. Um, but we’ve done in August, we did another one that was just kind of run by us and um, that one was really great because we actually, the last bit was just us kind of like round tabling and kind of figuring out those little nuances in, in people’s lives. Like, um, we had people coming from like a business background, people coming from, uh, the polyamory community, um, people coming from like organizations. So there was a lot of different things that we touched on in that way, um, because we didn’t want this to just be another, um, accessibility workshop that always puts the disabled person as the client or the customer or the person who needs help rather than your employee or your staff member or your friend. Um, so that was something that we really wanted to, to change and bring attention to.

That’s really cool. Um, there’s really not a lot of workshops that focus on like these are people you know, and Judy to not be an asset to them and here’s how not to be an ass and I think that that’s really something incredibly needed. Um, and we have to get you some like really cool funding so you can take it globally, Aka here.

Well, we do. Um, we have been kind of talking with some like university student unions locally, um, about doing our workshop, uh, for like their student unions and for faculty. So if there’s any university people out there listening who wants to pay for us to come down and do the workshop somewhere, cool, we’d be into that as well. That would be so cool. I would literally make the like 12 hour drive to come get you and take you places. Which sounds a little weird because it’s a long drive, very long draft. You might need a nap before we head back. Yeah. That’s probably not a terrible idea.

It’s like the nicest drive. Oh, I get to see all sorts of different things that you obviously don’t see just staying in your own space. Um, and I also just really love trying to stop at every on route, buy fries at one soda at another because I’m very weird.

Um, I’ve only done like a road trip kind of thing like that, like a few times and it’s usually with my parents, but definitely my favorite part was when we would stop at, you know, one of those rest stops and I could like go in and like get fries or like a drink or something because it is just like super satisfying. It’s like you’re rewarding yourself for sitting for three hours. You’re like, I did it. I sat still for three hours. Now I get French fries

Yea. Plus I also have an obsession with Canada. Um, so like every cute thing with a flag or every cool t shirt, a key chain, sticker magnet? Um, I have other things and

you probably have more Canadian things than I do

probably. But uh, actually going up to Canada and a couple of weeks, but to Saskatoon instead of Toronto. Well that’s a bit of a distance and excited. I’ve never been outside of Ontario and Quebec so. Well neither have I.

I mean in Canada, that’s sort of the only places I’ve been as well.

Well there we go. I, so I was in Montreal for to do a presentation and over the summer and when we were heading up I or like to prep for it, I was like, oh, I’ll just, you know, take some French on Duolingo so that I like at least kind of configure out. Um, and then the person I was talking to was like, oh no, you’ll be fine. Everything is like a French and English and then we crossed into Quebec and there was like no, English.

Yeah, like all the street signs and stuff like that are all in French. Usually if there is English, it’s like super tiny writing because it’s like illegally imposed. But in Montreal, um, everybody speaks or most customer service people will speak, will be bilingual. Um, because it’s a super touristy like city. Yes. Uh, so it’s like kind of necessary because we all refuse to learn French everywhere else. Uh, no, it’s because our, our, the way we are, we are taught French in public school kind of sucks. Oh No. Like my, uh, Jasmine’s actually taking a French class right now and she’s learning more in her first year. Then she learned in like five years of public school. Oh Wow. So it’s like, yeah, we don’t teach it very well and we kind of just go over the same three phrases over and over again. Like I know tissues that are Mushwa.

Uh, that’s probably more French than I remember. I don’t think we teach French that well here

considering we’re supposed to be a bilingual country, but you know, that’s just my opinion.

Yeah, I, it’s very interesting. So I’m slightly somewhat of a polyglot. Um, so I went to a Japanese immersion, uh, elementary school for like a year and a month. Well when I was very young and then took like five years of Spanish and took like as a nine year old, took like a semester of Mandarin at the Community College, uh, which I don’t remember any of and then like did two years of Arabic. So it’s really interesting to me to see how people teach and learn languages in other spaces like Arabic. So when I was learning Spanish we went through like a very specific, um, buildup of our vocabulary where we started with like numbers and colors and very basic things and then expanded to like big places and learning different dialects and things like that. And then when I was learning Arabic, like literally after the first month we were learning words for like terrorist. Oh, that’s an interesting. Like y’all haven’t taught me how to say shrimp. That’s, but I can say this person is a terrorist that’s very telling. It’s very weird, but I do like how they have it set up on Duolingo. It’s, it’s much more like, here’s a, you know, like the basics. Here’s how you ask where the bathroom is and then kind of grows from there.

Although they don’t have Arabic on there, they just added Hindi though, which is cool. Yeah. So I’ve been trying to learn Hindi for awhile. Um, but I am like too afraid to actually go and get, like professionally taught. Um, because that would involve like a Hindi speaker looking at me and being like, why don’t you already know this? I know that’s not what they’re actually thinking. Um, but like that’s how it feels like you already know this, like aren’t you descended from Hindus? Like, whoops, got to love that colonialism best. Um, but, um, so yeah, I’ve just started on that and it is, it’s very interesting because, um, I first started Duolingo, I’m doing Spanish because I was spending a month in Panama for work and so I was like, I should probably learn how to like say basic things before I get there. Um, and so it was like a much easier experience because I was like, oh, I remember this kind of goes, like French little, I can remember a little bit of this. So like, um, it’s not too bad. And then when I got there I had, you know, an entire office of Spanish speaking people to be like, does this make sense what I’m saying and like to kind of practice on. And they’d be like, please don’t say it like that. And I will be like, oh, okay, tell me how to actually say it. Um, and you know, stuff like that. But with Hindi I am like, I’ve spent

over a week on it and I’m still just going through the letters of the alphabet and I’m still like, most of the time I’m just guessing when it’s like, which sound is this letter represent this character represent. And I’m like, maybe I know it’s not that one, so it must be this. So yes, it’s a much slower process with the alphabet is written differently than kind of the normal like quote unquote English letters, right? Yes. It’s very different. Um, but like I haven’t even gotten to like actual words yet. Like I, I still can’t say anything. Um, but I also can’t even read the, a script of it. Yeah. So like if they, when they do put something up, I’m like, I don’t know what sound that supposed to be really bad.

I trust that you will get there because you are full of perseverance. I feel like you’ll get there even if it’s just out of pure stubbornness of like I at least want to get these letters down.

Yeah. That’s probably where I’ll end up just quitting as I’ll be able to like read the sounds and they’ll be like, I did it – I’m done. Um, but I don’t know so much about the perseverance. This is not the first language I’ve tried to learn. I also tried to learn German and Polish because I had friends who were German and Polish who actually spoke it. So I was like, I have somebody to practice with, let’s learn this language. And I gave up very quickly on those two and it’s actually my partner who speaks Polish and his mother is very unimpressed with me. She loves me in every other sense, but then like she’ll speak in Polish and like my partner will answer in English so I understand. And then she’ll like, it only happened recently because at the beginning she was like, oh, of course you don’t understand Polish. But now it’s been like six years. And she’s like, why don’t you know this yet? And I’m like, oops. Oh No. And try taking a class that didn’t go well.

I, I did. I’m not Duolingo, but the computer Rosetta stone, I tried to learn Serbian because like my husband’s grandfather came over from Serbia, so like his mom’s side of the family is just very into their Serbian roots. I don’t think they really speak it. Um, but like

I think I did like one or two classes and I was like, this is, I can’t do this. It makes no sense. I’m done. I don’t know about Serbian. In, uh, Polish has like, like 18 different endings. Yes. For like every kind of word. It’s like verbs have endings that change. Nouns have endings that change based on the verb, based on the tense it’s based on, It’s like, and then based on like arbitrarily assigned genders, two words in and then and every time I, I, I tried to write out a chart once and it took up like an entire eight and a half by 11 page. Oh Wow. Where I was just like, no, no, I don’t. There’s so many things to remember. It’s not going to work. You always say it’s easier to learn languages when you’re younger. I wonder how much of that is true and how much of that is true for those of us who have chronic illnesses or disabilities.

Like you feel like it’s just hard to learn languages. It is and I think I think it’s easier when you don’t have language and you’re first learning a language because you’re just kind of like, there’s no, you’re not changing rules, you’re not translating into something else. You’re just kind of like learning like, oh, that’s a table, that’s this and it’s kind of like you don’t know anything else. But then when to already have those rules set in place, learning another language, especially outside of that language family is just like, Huh. Like I know this thing as a table. How am I supposed to remember that it is called something else in this language and like it’s not easy. I always found myself like when I was learning Arabic it was really interesting is I would like in my brain translate what I wanted to say from English to Spanish and then there was no reason for that except for.

I mean, I don’t know like the 400 years that the Middle East had control of Spain, I mean, that influenced the language, but there was no logical reason in my head for that and I was in Mexico at the beginning of 2017 with my friend. We did like a couple of days there after the election and just needing to not be here. Um, and like I walked in all cocky and I was like, I can still speak Spanish, I can do this. And like half of the stuff that came out of my mouth was Arabic. We’re like, that’s. And that’s kind of funny because I do remember when I was learning Spanish sometimes when I was doing the dual lingo, I would get confused because the Polish word would come up first in my head and I would be like, like, it would be like hello. And I’d be like, Jenkooya and I’m like, nope, nope, that’s not Spanish at all. So funny, funny. Um, how do you feel? And feel free to like tell me you don’t want to answer this, but how you feel about all the praise that

former colonized countries are getting for throwing off colonized shackles, like, um, you know, countries that are taking bands off of queer relationships and queer marriages. Um, I’ve been seeing so many different stories from primarily people either in Canada and the US or in the UK, you know, talking about how much it’s nice that these countries are joining the 21st century without acknowledging that

those things were imposed upon them by like English settlers.

Um, and I have a lot of feels about that I feel like we’re in the same boat. Okay, cool. Um, yeah, no, I definitely agree with what you’re saying. Um, I think I actually touched on this in his article I wrote for daily Xtra basically like I think about it kind of like, um, when I think about India, so like in India, homosexuality was like legal, um, and it’s just become like legalized there. Um, and like there’s this very kind of rigid gender role that are, that have been imposed there. But when you go back to pre British colonial rule, like gender and sexuality were very fluid. Um, if you look in Hinduism, like a lot of the deities actually have like a, like a male and female form, like they, they inhabit both and so like it was actually like there is a third gender, they’re called the Hijra and they are kind of like a trans nonbinary identity. And prior to colonialism, um, you know, they were actually considered a, like an elevated type of person, like they were considered divine, um, because they shared that trait with, you know, their gods. And so when people are like, oh, you know, thanks for catching up. It’s like, thanks for handing down violence and bigotry and to our communities because we didn’t have that before. This is actually relatively new for us. So I have, I have a lot of feelings about it. They’re mostly

back when I was learning Arabic, I was taking a bunch of courses around. I’m like Islamic culture and Middle Eastern cultures. And there’s a one really great seminar that I was taking was about different sexualities in um, Middle Eastern countries. And there’s so much people don’t know, I’m from third, fourth genders to a people that would have, you know, a quote unquote same sex relationships with, um, you know, with people for years and then settled down and marry someone of the opposite sex. It’s just absolutely fascinating. Um, but also really heartbreaking to read how people were, um, you know, handled and treated and harmed once British people decided to come in and look at other people with their own lens. And it just makes me want to punch people. Um, which I’m not good at punching people. But like, yeah, it’s bad. It’s, I think it’s so fascinating though now because I feel like people understand a little bit more about that dynamic. I’m like, teen vogue was like this time last year they released a piece about different nonbinary and third and fourth genders around the world. That is like, I referenced it in an academic paper. I referenced it for like, um, this piece I wrote in a text book, like Teen Vogue is doing some good shit, but like, it’s just fascinating to see how much more in tune with that history. Some of us are and especially like those of us who are much younger and who I don’t know, like, care about learning about that stuff.

Yeah. I, I actually feel like a really good about the younger generation. Like I feel like, like there’s this idea that you’re, you get smarter the older you get, but I think you also just get more set in your ways and your ideas and youth come in and they’re like, but your ideas are weird and wrong, so maybe we should try something different. And they just kind of accept these new ideas because like I said, with language, like they don’t know anything else and like the logic makes sense. It’s all there. And like when you compare it to other older ideas,

it’s like, no, this one makes the most sense. Yeah. It’s really cool to see that happening, um, through the political sphere to like I have a lot of hope for the future. Once we get done with like the immediate future to see all of these very young kids being so politically engaged and so into activism is really cool. Um, and makes me feel less like everything should be set on fire a little less. Uh, I trust that if things were set on fire, they could also rebuild them. So that might just be what they have to do. That’s what I’m thinking. Um, but again, that just brings us back to our socialist ideals. It’s so much fun talking with Mari and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I know that we really talked about some random stuff, but I think it was really fun and I could have talked for hours, hours.

I just think it’s really nice to have conversations with people where you come away learning things and I feel like every time I talk to Mari, that’s exactly what happens. Um, it’s just really cool and I really appreciate them being on the show. If you like a true crime or horror or aliens, definitely go check out their podcast Sick Sad World and I’ll put links in the show notes to how you can listen to that, um, to Mari’s twitter handle and to their site, indivisible writing.com. I’ve also got some links to pieces that we talked about. Um, like the teen vogue gender identity piece and a couple of the pieces that Mari has written that I just really love. So I hope that you make time to check those out. I will get a transcription up on the site as well, so that should be published the same time this goes live if I figured out how to schedule things correctly. Um, it’s, it’s a bit of a brain fog day, so we’re going to see how that goes. I’m being, I’m going to give myself the space and not be upset with myself if I didn’t get it right this time. We’re all just learning and we’re all just practicing and you know, I think that’s okay. And I think the world needs more people who don’t give themselves grace and space to do that. And uh,

people who give themselves too much to rethink their life choices. For now I’m going to go eat a grilled cheese and get ready for PT this afternoon for my shoulder so that maybe I can move it. I love you all. I hope that you have a wonderful couple of weeks and I will talk to you soon.

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